Toshiba 51H84 Calibration Results.

[leno]

Greetings,
I just recently had my televison calibrated by Total Home Systems an ISF certified dealer (Located in Livonia, MI) and wanted to share my results with you and to get your thoughts.

Equipment used: Sencore ColorPro Color Analyer and software and some type of signal generator that produced the test patterns instead of using a test disk..

Process: The technician had me turn on my TV 1/2 hour before he got there. Once the technician arrived he proceeded to do some basic set up stuff like turn off SVM and set color temp to medium and switched to film mode. Once this was done he hooked up the signal generator via component to my sattelite input. He used the signal generator to produce test patterns for black levels, contrast, color, tint and sharpness. Color and tint were done using a special filter strip the tech looked through.

Once this was done the tech turned on the 20 and 80 IRE test patterns through the signal generator and attached the Sencore Color Analyzer to the screen over test patterns. This part was really cool. You could see the color temperatures on the PDA as well as a graph with a box in the middle. The tech had the software loaded onto his PDA and proceeded to adjust what he called the "Color Temperture" I took this to be as the temperature of the grayscale on the medium color temperature setting. One thing I was confused about is the way the tech was measuring the temperature. I asked him if he was going to measure to 6500 K temperature and he said that isn't exactly the case. What ISF teaches them is to adjust to certain X&Y coordinates of X= .312 and Y=.32. By adjusting to these coordinates it appears the color temps were all around 6500 post calibration but not exact.. Anyway looking on his PDA I could see this little box on a graph and the goal was to adjust the Cuts and DRV's so that the reference point on the graph would fall into the little box on the PDA. You could also see the position of all the guns on the graph. I didn't understand completely how this worked so forgive me if my explanation is innacurrate. This part of the calibration took the longest, going back and forth, back and forth. Ultimately the cuts and drv's were way different then the factory settings, escpecially the RDRV. I did notice that the grayscale ramps looked more gray on the signal generator test pattern vs the one used on AVIA. This leads me to believe the test patterns produced by the signal generator were more accurate than the ones produced using AVIA. This is probably due to the fact that the DVD player is not perfect? Once the tech got it just right he proceeded to re-adjust the user settings and suprisingly they changed again.

The tech repeated this whole process for my DVD input and another suprise was that the X&Y coordinates for the color temp were a little different. After this was done we took a look at the convergence and that wasn't too bad as i had already adjusted it before. After all was said and done I have to say the picture is by far the best it has ever looked. There is a dramatic difference in the skin tones, everything looks sharper and more accurate and the colors look awesome.

Another suprise is that the Sharpness control doesn't do a whole lot for the picture as my post calibration settings are only 15 out of 100. The tech says sharpness is a marketing tool for RPTV's as it is the convergence and accurate color temps that make the pic look clear...

All in all the tech was really nice and i would highly recommend them to anyone living in the Metro Detroit area in Michigan.

Results...
Pre Calibration:
10 IRE 6626 K
20 IRE 4636 K
30 IRE 5260 K
40 IRE 5448 K
50 IRE 6548K
60 IRE 6841 K
70 IRE 7154 K
80 IRE 6971 K
90 IRE 6813 K
100 IRE 6740 K

PostCalibration: (X=.313, Y=.329 8 out of 10 measurements fell right in the middle of the box and 2 were slightly outside of it)
10 IRE 6650 K
20 IRE 5796 K
30 IRE 6291 K
40 IRE 6604 K
50 IRE 6483K
60 IRE 6725 K
70 IRE 6620 K
80 IRE 6626 K
90 IRE 6462 K
100 IRE 6535 K

?. Do these post calibration temperatures seem acceptable or should they be closer to 6500? Again the tech said that it was more important to have the X and Y coordinates accurate then it was to have the temps at 6500?

OK. I think I just answered my own question here: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=2&article_id=233&page_number=5

It appears in RPTV's peaks and valleys of =/- 200 degrees off 6500 are common. Especially in the lower range (20IRE) where being off 500 degress or soo is not uncommon.

I think this answers why the tech was looking at the X and Y coordinates vs relying on Grayscale color temp of 6500K. It appears by getting your color temps to match these exact coordinates on the CIE chromacity diagram you are in essence matching pure white. So according to the calibration he got pretty darn close. By matching these coordinates the result was that the grayscales were pretty darn close to 6500K. Phew that's a lot to learn.:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/pdf/Hot_Topics/0502/0502hottopics_cie_diagram.pdf
"NTSC standard white, which is exactly
defined by its coordinates in the diagram:
x = 0.3127, y = 0.3290."




Comparing the two graphs on paper the post calibration provides for a drastically straighter plot with only the 20 IRE level being noticeably outside the the line.

[Michael TLV]

Greetings

Calibration is always fun to sit through.

Did you get the person to check the focus on the TV as well? Touch up the geometry ... overscan? Did he physically unplug the SVM wire or just set the TV to Movie mode?

Did the person do a bit of lens striping to even out the color shift from left to right in the image?

To get better performance from an RPTV with respect to grayscale ... be prepared to spend many more $10k of money. Calibration is always limited by what the TV allows you to do.

So was the TV grayscale recalibrated to the output of the DVD player at the end? That is required by the ISF and calibrators are supposed to do that. Calibration is a systems approach.

If they don't then what you have is the best tasting cake in the world, but you can't truly taste it. The final step is to make the display account for some of the weaknesses of the DVD player.

Regards

[leno]

Focus..Not sure, Geometry Yes. Set to Movie Mode vs unplugging the wire

No Lens Striping

Only spent $350.00 for two inputs. Tech had very good equipment though..Signal generator + Sencore Analyzer were worth $9,000 combined.

"Yes, Grayscale was recalibrated to output of DVD player at the end - thus two grayscale calibrations were performed 1st the High Definition cable box input and 2nd the DVD input. Both color temperatures were calibrated using the test patterns from the signal generator . However-My big question.. I am not sure as to why the inputs would be slightly different as the tech used the signal generator for both inputs and the Cuts and DRV's are universal among all inputs. Anyway, both were close except the DVD input had about eight more notches of rcut. So the tech wrote down both Cut and DRV settings for the sattlite and DVD input in case I wanted to change. However I think the picture looks better with the DVD input grayscale/color temp settings so i watch my sattelite with those settings as well. Do you happen to know why they would differ? And which color temp settings should I use..The ones from the first color temp analysis(HD cable) or the ones from the second analysis (DVD input)? "

[Michael TLV]

Greetings

I mentioned focus because a proper grayscale on a blurry image is just that ... the image is still blurry. You can still do that part yourself; both mechnical and electronic focus.

Inputs are different because there can be a 10 to 15% variance between components that go into the TV sets. Add up all the variances and you have the differences between inputs.

If you want a DVD player with 3-5% variance between components ... Linn Audio makes one ... for $11K ...

Things built to military spec cost more.

What color temp works best?

The grayscale is optimized for the DVD player. YOu will get the most accurate images from that source.

Choosing the HD/sat one would work if you knew that all the programs and channels were close to each other in transfer and transmission quality. Some are too bright ... some too dark ... some have color too high ... too low ... tint wrong ... so which channel here is the "correct" one?

The HD was calibrated to a "signal box" ... so use that as a starting point. I would use the DVD version as the starting point because you know that is good for something ... versus the HD one which is close but not particularly good for anything.

Regards

[leno]

Regarding focus..I think my picture is very, very clear now so i am not sure if my focus would be that out of whack. Thanks for bringing that point up.

Thanks for the info on component differences on different inputs. This makes perfect sense

As far as DVD player I currently own a Panasonic XP30. I was told that this DVD player produces one of the most accurate images out there.

The color temperature was adjusted using the Medium setting so I suppose this works best.

So you are saying to use the cut's and drv's service menu settings which were set using the DVD input because I know watching DVD's that it will be accurate vs using the settings for the HDTV cable box because every channel is different. So I would benefit more from using the DVD input settings. So would If I am going to use the DVD grayscale then should I adjust my user controls (color, sharpness, tint, brightness) on my HDTV input to match my DVD input??

Thanks

[57U]

Please use the "quick reply", or "post reply" buttons. A quote is not necessary in a two-way conversation, or when replying to the post above yours. Thanks.

[Michael TLV]

Greetings

I would use the base settings optimized for DVD on the TV set as a starting point for everything else you watch.

Mirror the settings over to the satellite input if it is a different input. Then leave the DVD settings alone when watching DVD ... (unless the dvd transfer is just really really wrong ... rare, but it does happen.)

Use these mirrored settings as the starting point on the hd cable ... let's say. Because consistency is rare in the cable TV world ... you will have to ride the user controls here. Mainly, I expect you to play with the brightness and color and tint controls the most. A click or two one way or the other off the dvd optimal ... because the material on cable just isn't very consistent ...

You will retain 95% of the overall benefit of the DVD calibration ... but what can you do ... it varies and you have to make changes ...

usually pressing movie mode takes it all back to the optimal settings again and you can start again for the next program you watch.

Regards

[leno]

By base settings you mean the cuts and drv's settings that were calibrated using DVD input which can only be accessed in the service menu, right?
Thanks.

[Michael TLV]

Greetings

No ... I mean base user settings ... like 50/50/50/50 down the middle stuff

Regards

[leno]

So use the cut and drv settings that make the DVD input color temp closest to ISF reccomendations for every input vs the cut and drv settings that make the HD input color temp closest...

I just don't understand what a tech tells a customer when they pay to have two inputs calibrated...I mean, in my case I can only have one input properly calibrated in regards to color temp becuase the settings for one don't match ISF spec for the other....So why do I pay for two? This is now in the back of my head now knowing when I watch my HD input I am not getting the best PQ possible..

[Michael TLV]

Greetings

If the TV does not allow for two grayscales ... then you can't really do two inputs. I'm not sure about the usefulness of constantly going into the SM and changing numbers out. It is just not a practical thing to do.

For a set like yours ... I usually just optimize the TV to the DVD player first. Once I know that part is "good to go" ... then I hook up the HD signal generator and look at how that grayscale calibration has carried over to the HD side of things. In most cases, the HD side is close now ... and given the source material that will be played in HD ... this close is good enough. A signal generator is fine and dandy for setting up HD, but in the end, you don't watch the generator patterns ... but rather the real material.

Given all the inconsistencies between channels and programming material in the HD/SD cable/satellite realm ... hoping for that one best calibrated setting is unrealistic. Place it next to the free medicare and the flying cars.

Accept that you will have to change things up a bit for the HD and SD material.

Regards

[leno]

Thanks for helping me clear my consience...

Next question.. Do you think the tech should have used my DVD player + Avia to calibrate color temp on the DVD input vs the signal generator's grayscale test patterns?

Dan.

[Michael TLV]

Greetings

Yes, the ISF tech should have calibrated the DVD input with your DVD player and a test disc. AVIA (accounting for the grayscale errors in the disc) or DVE or other appropriate test discs.

If he didn't then he wasn't paying attention at the ISF seminar where it is explicitly emphasized that one calibrates the final image with the DVD player and not a signal generator.

Regards

[leno]

Ok. So now I run into this dilema...Every time I switch DVD players I have to spend an additional $350 to have my DVD input's color temp calibrated... Meaning if the one I have gets hit by a pabst truck or I want a new HD DVD player one day..etc, etc...At least with the signal generator I know I'll be in the ball park? No?

[Michael TLV]

Greetings

No ... that's not how it should work. You should find the DVD is fairly close to the generator, but the DVD gets priority because it is part of the system and not the generator.

When you change out components in the system, the system performance will change. this is unavoidable. Calibration is a systems approach ... not just the display.

If your calibrator is a good guy ... swapping out stuff and then retweaking should be a service that is also available at a substantially reduced price.

When I take care of my clients that do this ... I commonly charge a "C" note for it. The cost of a house call and I recheck their set up anyway. Roll it into a touch up service.

Many routinely call me for tons of advice so service never stops with just the house call. Change out equipment at your leisure, but time the touch up service with when you might normally consider getting it done again. 12 to 18 month time period. Why? Because the TV drifts as it ages ... and it can't be avoided.

It's just the nature of the calibration service. It is not a one time only thing ... but something that needs touching up over time. Just like oil changes in cars. You don't just get one for the life of the car.

In most cases, when you swap out players ... the only changes that occur to a major degree is a change in the brightness level and light output. So just use AVIA or other test discs to get the new optimal brightness and contrast settings ... and time the other stuff. You only need to get the calibrator guy back if the output of the new player is really really wrong ... and then that might be because the player is defective as well.

Regards

[leno]

Ok. I have emailed my tech to get his thoughts..Thanks for the advice and I will let you know what he says..

I am thinking that the color temp changes, from a recalibration, will be minimal as my XP30 DVD player is extremely close to spec in regards to black and white levels...

[leno]

All right, I just heard back from my tech and his response what that they normally do all their calibrations using the signal generator as the calibration is more accurate vs test disks and DVD player. So I assume the are not taking the systems approach but just a monitor approach. I don't think there is much more I can do but learn from the experience and know what kind of questions to ask the next time around. Again I assume my color temps are still a lot more accurate then the Out of Box condition so I can live with that. The gentleman was very nice about it and did spend 4+ hours doing the calibration... This is definately a lessons learned for people looking to get their sets calibrated.

PS. If I tuned the rcut down 4 notches would this create a drastic change in my color temp? The reason being is because I notice a very small tint of red in the grayscale on the HD cable mode that isn't present in the DVD mode..I assume this is because the color temp was set accurately according to the DVD input.

Thanks again for all the advice.
dan.

[Michael TLV]

Greetings

So an ISF calibrator that wasn't using the ISF calibration approach he was taught but something else he picked up elsewhere.

See how much 4 clicks does ...

compare the HD optimal settings he did with the DVD numbers and maybe comeup with a best fit compromise for all material.

The problem with using solely a generator is that it is not part of your system. the stuff you plug into the system will cause the TV to deviate ... a bit or a lot. We calibrate to the system to make sure to account for system errors. When only dealing with the generator ... there is no accounting for the system errors.

Bake you the best tasting cake in the world ... put it under glass ... you don't get to taste it. Cake goes bad over time.

Bake you the best tasting cake in the world ... let you taste it. Cake goes bad over time.

Make TV perfect ... send imperfect signal to it ... get imperfect image.

Make TV perfect ... send imperfect signal to it ... adjust the TV to account for the imperfect signal ... get perfect image.

Well go find your best fit solution. Hoped all this info helped you out.

Regards

[leno]

Background:

You've probably heard me complain a lot about my Tosh 51H84 over the past year. We'll I am writing you today to say that I am finally happy!

Shortly after writing this original post I came in contact with a very nice gentleman from Summit HDTV. He was really concerned with me having a negative impression of ISF certified techs. We exchanged some emails back and forth and I explained to him why I wasn't happy with my previous Calibration from Total Home Systems. He was very understanding and wanted to help! Therefore, he agreed to come and work on my TV at a substantially reduced rate. I was really happy to hear this so we set up an appointment.

The appointment:

He arrived on time and I noticed he had a lot more equipment then the original calibrator had. The first thing we did was sit down and talk about my TV. I told him I was unhappy with the abundance of red on the outer edges of the TV and there appeared to be a tint of green in the blacks. He then gave me some background on how he got into the business and what type of experience he has had with TV's like mine. As it turns out he had not calibrated a lot of Toshiba's like mine, so he did a substantial amount of research before the appointment. We watched some footage and he took some notes. Then he went to work. Here is the process we followed (he explained each step while we went through the process):


1. First we removed the screen and he cleaned the lenses and mirror.
2. Second he performed focusing of the lenses
3. We replaced the screen and service panel.
4. Used Avia pro on my DVD player to adjust user controls (brightness, contrast etc.)
5. Used Signal generator on HDTV input to adjust user controls
6. Used Avia pro to adjust geometry-vertical ajustments, horizontal adjustments.
7. Used laptop, and Avia Pro test patterns to adjust grayscale on DVD input.
8. We then adjusted the video settings on my DVD player and readjusted Grayscale to see which DVD settings gave us the best Grayscale tracking.
NOTE: This was really tricky with my TV because the lower IRE's 10&20 were very hard to match up. They were running warmer than 6500 but he said that a little blue is an acceptable error and I later learned that most RPTV's have trouble hitting 6500 on the lower end.
9. After grayscale was measured we took a look at convergence. He said I did a really good job on convergence before so not much adjustment was necessary.
10. We repeated steps 4 and 5

Once we were done we watched some footage and the color temp was much closer, however the red glow on the outer edges was even more present then before. We both saw this as unacceptable and identified it as a color uniformity issue and knew that lens striping was the only way to solve this issue. He explained to me that he did not have much experience in Lens Striping and it was getting late. So he made me a deal. He asked me to give him a week to do some research and that he would come back, free of charge to spend an evening Lens Striping and taming the temperatures on the outer edges of the screen. One week went by and he arrived as planned. As it turns out he consulted with Gregg Loewen from Lion Audio Video Consultants Inc. Gregg was happy to help him with some tips on my TV and tips on Lens Striping. So we took off the screen and began Lens striping. It was like an artist making a painting. We striped the red then found out we needed to do some green then blue etc. Every stripe we put on we put the screen back on and took temperature readings. We finally got it to an acceptable level. The results were amazing.

When all was said and done he asked me if I was happy, if not he was prepared to refund my money. Again, his main concern was to ensure that I was left with a positive impression on ISF certified technicians. I was very, very pleased with the results and with his service. He was very personal and friendly. I will be contacting him in the future for calibrations on equipment upgrades. I would recommend Summit HDTV for anyone in Southeast Michigan as customer satisfaction is his main concern. The calibration, coupled with my recent removal of the protective screen truly does make a picture worth a thousand words.