View Full Version : Help with Natural mode on a Widescreen set.
50HDX
09-14-2002, 09:41 AM
Toshiba in the manual states that Under selecting pic size page 35 says The Natural pic size displays a conventional (4:3) format pic in its orginal 4:3 size, with black bars at left & right.
Quote: COLOR=red]The Natural Pic size displays a WIDE-SCREEN (16:9) format picture in its orginal 16:9 size. Natural picture size is recomended for WIDE-SCREEN format pictures.[/COLOR]
I called Toshiba support and they say that with my Tosh 3950 DVD player it should display a wide-screen picture in Natural mode from the DVD player WITHOUT SIDE BARS!!!!. But it doesn't !!!!!!!!!!!!!It shows the Pic in 4:3 with silver bars.
I've tried 3 sets. One with a Tosh 4800 DVD player at BestBuy. Won't work on any of the 3 sets, As you all know Theater Wide 1-2-3 alter the picture.
So i wanted to ask all of you Toshiba owners out there if you can display a widescreen movie in Normal or Natural mode without the Black (silver) side bars that show it in a 4:3 format. Toshiba is passing the buck and recomends a tech check it out, LONG WAITING TIME AROUND HERE. Come-on Guys!!!! check out your own manuals & sets and let me know..........:( Can anyone else do this ? or did i find 3 set that won't do it.
The answers to your questions are found in the following two threads. It's my suspicion that you may not have your DVD player set to 16:9 and also that you may not be picking the appropriate stretch mode for the particular DVD.
Black Bars & DVDs (http://www.hdtvoice.com/voice/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1052)
Stretch Modes (http://www.hdtvoice.com/voice/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1044)
Although the stretch modes are called something different on your Toshiba, look in the operating manual for their proper use and description.
edit - it was later determined that the Toshiba operating manual instructions are incorrect in their use of "natural" for DVD players
blindman
09-17-2002, 04:12 PM
I also recently purchased the 50HDX82 and found it to be doing exactly the same thing. I called Toshiba and they said it may be a misprint and they would check it out. No response yet
Kurse
10-09-2002, 12:30 PM
Hey guys, are you using the Component inputs (colorstream 1 or 2)?
I just got my set last Saturday (I absolutely love it btw..best 2k I ever spent), and indeed Natural mode gives me the true picture size on DVDs without sidebars. It looks outstanding.
Axiom
10-09-2002, 01:30 PM
My 65HDX82 has the same problem. In Natural mode while playing any DVD, using either component input, I get bars on the right and left. The DVD player is set for 16:9 and widescreen.
Just to be sure, I went back to the store and tried their TV with another DVD player. Same bars on both sides.
I believe that the Toshiba "natural" mode does nothing to the incoming image. If it's a 4:3 image coming in, it will leave it 4:3 (bars on side)
If it's 1.85:1 (standard DVD), it will leave bars at the top and bottom and on the sides, and you will have to use the set's "zoom" (horizontal and vertical stretch) mode to make the 1.85 image fill the screen.
If it's a 1.85:1 (enhanced for widescreen DVD) it will leave bars on the sides, everyone will be tall and skinny, and you will need to use the horizontal stretch mode to properly see the DVD.
If it's a 2.35:1 - etc. etc. Go back and reread my FAQ post on "Black Bars" and "stretch modes". Also remember to RTFM.
Axiom
10-09-2002, 03:50 PM
The 65HDX82 manual says "The Natural picture size displays a wide-screen (16:9) format picture in its original 16:9 size. Natural picture size is the recommended mode for wide-screen format pictures."
Reading the fine print on the DVD cases, I found that my "widescreen" DVDs are 2.35:1 letterboxed. Some of them do say "Enhanced for widescreen TVs". They still show up as a 4:3 image inside of the bars in "Natural" mode.
Upon reading the FAQs for the third time, I realize that my assumptions of how the DVDs should play were incorrect, although the Toshiba manual helped in no small measure to mislead me.
Using the "Full" mode instead of "Natural" seemed to help on my TV.
I just received my 65hdx82 today and it is doing the same thing. I contacted Toshiba and they said there was something wrong with the set. If I change the mode to full the entire screen is filled, but this is a streched image. I am not using component inputs yet, but I am going to try that. Toshiba did say that I could either have the unit serviced, or I could contact the dealer to get a replacement. I am going to play with it and see if the HD colorstrem does the same thing.
hope this helps.
Axiom
10-10-2002, 10:48 PM
According to the manual, every mode except "Natural" is a stretched image. It doesn't make any sense that the only way to watch a widescreen DVD is stretched. When I called Toshiba, they said "Natural" mode should be showing 16:9 widescreen DVDs in 16:9 widescreen. My set doesn't. I am having the TV serviced on Monday (getting that audio hiss problem fixed too).
Originally posted by Axiom
It doesn't make any sense that the only way to watch a widescreen DVD is stretched.
I'm sorry it doesn't make any sense to you but that's how all the sets work. Here's why.
If you think about it, except for true HD, which is only displayed in 16:9, the TV "thinks" it's receiving a 4:3 image. This 4:3 image from the DVD player, must then be stretched horizontally, if it's an enhanced for widescreen DVD, or it must be stretched horizontally and vertically for a non-enhanced 1.85 or 2.35 DVD.
If the DVD is a 4:3 (fullscreen (pan and scan)) image, then your "natural" mode will show it as intended (4:3). (makes sense right)
You can then decide if you want to leave the 4:3 image as is, risking burn-in, or use one of the stretch modes to fill the 16:9 screen.
Sorry you don't agree, but the TV cannot read your mind as to what you are putting in the DVD player or what you want it to do with the "software" you are putting in the DVD player, therefore you have to tell it what to do with the image depending on what you're putting in.
I agree that you could put a "tag" on the DVD that says "TV stretch this image", but that would only work for "enhanced DVDs" on a widescreen set. It would not work for non-enhanced material (which there is more of).
You also have to remember that DVDs have been around for more than 5 years, so those DVDs must be able to be played, on any DVD player on any TV and the only way to play them on a widescreen HDTV is to tell the TV what to do with them.
Axiom
10-11-2002, 12:54 AM
Your explanation makes sense to me, but I assumed that setting the DVD player to 16:9 mode would send a different type of signal than if it was set to 4:3. I figured the TV would then display based on this signal. If that's not the case, any idea what the 16:9 setting on the DVD player does? Thanks for the help.
Originally posted by Axiom
any idea what the 16:9 setting on the DVD player does? Yes, I do. ;) If you read the manual it'll probably say something like, if you have a widescreen TV use this setting. If you use this setting on a 4:3 TV, all the "enhanced for widescreen" DVDs will make everyone look tall and skinny, because 4:3 TVs do not have stretch modes.
If you don't stretch your "enhanced" DVDs, you'll also notice that everyone is tall and skinny - therefore you need to stretch these images and you can't leave them "natural" as we discussed before.
What does this get you on a 16:9 set? - well 33% better resolution, for the same size picture because you only stretch the image sideways instead of in both directions.
If you read my FAQ posts on black bars, stretch modes and also go to the anamorphic websites, they'll explain it in more detail.
Wow, so much to learn... Being a technical person, I can understand all the reasons why things work the way they do, but for the average person, this stuff is just way too hard. It would be like me trying to paint, or sing - can't do it.
The good thing is, most technical stuff can be explained or taught, you could never teach me to paint or sing, especially not on-line.
Axiom
10-11-2002, 04:25 PM
So the 65HDX82 manual must be incorrect when it says "The Natural picture size displays a wide-screen (16:9) format picture in its original 16:9 size. Natural picture size is the recommended mode for wide-screen format pictures."
If that's what the manual says, it's incorrect. You may wish to contact Toshiba and advise them of the error - you could direct them to this thread.
Hitachi calls this mode "4:3", which is more helpful, although the "Jenglish" that is supposed to pass for a description of the various aspect ratios, leaves something to be desired...:mad:
cjhsa
10-15-2002, 07:20 PM
I'm also interested in this TV so this thread disturbs me. There are no dumb questions so I'm going to ask this one - please don't get offended by it. Are you sure you have the DVD in the player correctly? Some DVD's are doublesided, one side being 4:3 and the other 16:9. The labeling on them can also be misleading, in that they will put the 16:9 label on the side that the 4:3 is recorded on, so you can read it from the top when you are looking down in the tray. No joke.
Other DVD's will ask you which version you want to play, and have both burned on the same side of the CD. I don't like the fact that you have to tell DVD players what to output, they should just play whatever is on the DVD. The TV should be able to determine what signal it is receiving and do its best to display it.
Originally posted by cjhsa
The TV should be able to determine what signal it is receiving and do its best to display it. cjhsa: Welcome to the forum.
I agree, unfortunately things are not as simple as that. Not everyone wants to see a DVD in the same way. Also a lot of older DVDs already on the market do not contain the information you ask for, so the TV set has to be able to "manually" have you tell it what you want to see.
If DVDs technology were just created today, then DVDs could perhaps have some information coded on them for the TV to read and display "properly", however, some people may still want to modify the display.
For example, people with widescreen HDTVs would probably stretch a 4:3 image to fill their TV, despite the fact that the DVD would "say" "I am a 4:3 DVD."
A few years ago, most receivers had to be manually switched between digital and analogue audio signals. Some of today's receivers can do this automatically and some even have "signal priority" whereby the receiver picks the best video and audio signal (ie component video, DD5.1, etc). So things are getting better, it's just that this technology is evolving as we go along.
Please see the FAQ section for more information on this, and other subjects, that may be of interest to you.
50HDX
10-15-2002, 10:00 PM
Hi All :) To cjhsa and others. I still can't do the 16x9 in Natural mode. But i want to report that My Picture is still Excellent and i haven't even touched the one touch focus button yet, haha I truly recommend this set to everyone interested, Its the Cinema Series as most of you know. Best of everything is in this set. I purchased it from One Call and saved 4-500 dollars over local retailers. They gave me free shipping and i asked for an old promo they had on free Liberty component cables retailing at $50.00 at Huppins, their B&M i assume. This set is really awesume and i only regret not getting the 57" or larger, LOL :D
I read the same info in the Toshiba manual. I called Toshiba and asked them but didn't get a satisfactory answer. My 65HDX82 displays properly when I use the FULL mode to watch movies enhanced for 16x9 tv's. My Toshiba 4800 is set to 16x9 and progressive is enabled. I do not lose any vertical or horizontal info. I'll have to look into the stretching for non-enhanced DVD's, so far I haven't played any.
I am new to the site and am very glad I found it!
Thanks,
Lee
jscalisi
10-23-2002, 09:05 PM
DVD's that are enhanced for widescreen or 16x9 TVs use the FULL mode picture setting.
For a DVD that is widescreen but not enhanced, use Theater Wide 2 setting. Theater Wide 2 stretches the picture without distortion.
For 4x3 programming use Theater Wide 1. That stretches the picture with minimal distortion in the center of the picture and greater distortion at the sides but it is not to bad to view.
Always make sure the DVD is set to 16x9 TV set mode.
Agree completely with the FULL and Wide 1 settings. Tried a non-enhanced widescreen DVD, War Games, but the Wide 2 setting only stretched the picture vertically. Wide 1 and 3 no better. FULL gave a proper picture but with bars all around like a picture frame. I have a 65HDX82, a friend has a 50HDX82 and it did the same on another widescreen non-enhanced DVD. Must be a difference due to models. the bars weren't that large and I didn't find them objectionable. I don't seem to have that many non-enhanced DVD's.
Still learning
Lee
That's very odd:
A 1.85:1 non-enhanced DVD should perfectly fill the 16:9 screen with one of the stretch modes (the one that stretches vertically and horizontally). There should be no bars.
A 2.35:1 non-enhanced should leave some black bars, top & bottom when stretched the same way, but no bars on the side.
Some DVDs are 4:3 (fullscreen or Pan&scan) they should be treated like any other 4:3 image.
I've seen the very occasional 1.66:1 DVD which is stupid because it is not correct for a 4:3 TV or a 16:9 TV.
Odd indeed!
Found a 1.85:1 non-enhanced DVD, 'Young Frankenstein'. Had the same basic results as in my last post. After double checking my DVD player setup at 16:9 I turned off the progressive scan and played the movie again with completely different results. The movie filled the screen perfectly at Theater Wide 3. The other settings did not look correct, including FULL.
Turning progressive scan on/off on my Toshiba 4800 makes a major difference on how movies are displayed.
I tried 'Lord of the Rings' with the progressive off. Lets just say I'll play enhanced DVD's with progressive on and Full on the TV. I'll play non-enhanced with progressive off and Theater Wide 3.
Our DVD players could be why we are seeing different results.
Thanks for your help and patience
:)
Lee
jscalisi
10-29-2002, 10:47 AM
This "Natural Mode" that some people are referring to is not stated incorrectly in the Toshiba manual. If a true 16x9 format picture is fed to the TV, it will display correctly in "Natural Mode". The problem is, your DVD player is not feeding a true 16x9 format picture to the TV. Based on the type of DVD and DVD player, you need to use the various stretch modes to get the picture to it's proper aspect ratio.
If you have a 16x9 HDTV, you get the best results with a progressive scan DVD player set to 16x9 mode playing a DVD that is enhanced for 16x9 TVs, also know as an anamorphic DVD.
When they finally come out with HD DVD players, this issue will go away cause the HD DVD player will tell the TV what to do.
Thanks, I guess that about covers it.
Lee
Originally posted by jscalisi
This "Natural Mode" that some people are referring to is not stated incorrectly in the Toshiba manual. Sorry to contradict you JS, but almost every operating manual states that you have to use one of the stretch modes to watch DVDs (correctly), while the Toshiba manual states that you can watch 16:9 movies properly in this "natural" mode when you cannot.
Do you know of a DVD player available today that sends a widescreen movie signal to the Toshiba that is properly displayed in "natural" mode?
If the Toshiba manual were correct, we wouldn't have all these confused people in this thread.
I went back and re-read all the posts in this thread. Check out 57U's first post. 'Black Bars & DVD's' and 'Stretch Modes' in the FAQ's. While I was there I read the other FAQ's.
Answers our questions pretty well and alot of other good stuff.
Lee
i just bought the collectors addition of pearl harbor.... don't laugh, on the first disk is a very easy to use THX setup that goes through contrast, brightness, audio and they have two circle tests. one for 4:3 and one for 16:9. for 16:9, the circle only appears correctly when viewed in full mode.
GOMSU79
11-13-2002, 09:47 PM
Just got a new HDX82 yesterday with a Hughes E86. I get a great digital signal. In natural mode, should HD programs such as NYPD Blue fill the screen or still show with letter box? The picture was great, but I thought shows shot in HD would fill the screen if broadcast in HD. Same with Leno. Any comments or information?
I have HDTV through my cable provider, and it fills the screen of my 65hdx82 in natural mode. I don't know if would be the same for OTA or satellite, but i would think they would be the same.
GOMSU79. Welcome to the forum:
All true HD programmes, like Leno, are 16:9 and will perfectly fill a widescreen HDTV. If they do not, then they are not HD, or there is something amiss with your setup.
The only exception is movies with an original aspect ratio of >1.85:1 and those will have black bars above and below the image.
Please take some time to look at the FAQ section, 6th one down on the home page. In there you will find some useful posts, especially two on "Black Bars" and "Stretch modes".
GOMSU79
11-17-2002, 12:46 PM
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one experiencing the full 16x9 DVD on the Toshiba. I've got the 57HDX82 and an older Panasonic A110 DVD player that feeds it's signal via S-Video cables. I have the Panasonic set to 19x9, but it's manual says that you have to use the "full" mode on your monitor to view the 16x9 format. That must be the case, because the "natural" mode in the HDX82 is shown with bars. The 'full" mode looks pretty natural, but I suspect it is being altered. Thanks for all of the good information on this subject. I wonder if the other DVD manuals say the same thing about "full" mode?
When you upgrade to a progressive scan DVD player you will really see how great the DVD movies look. All the DVD's enhanced for 16:9 TV's(anamorphic) are played in FULL. I have a Panasonic A-110 that I gave to the kids when I upgraded. I can hook it up to see what it does on my 65HDX82 if you like. I got my Toshiba 4800 at the same time I got the TV so I never tried it on the big screen.
I use a Toshiba DST3000 STB and the programs in HD do fill the screen. Alot of the programs are not HD and have the bars on the sides.
All the HD I watch are off an antenna in the attic.
Let me know if I can help,
Lee
50HDX
11-17-2002, 10:34 PM
My Tosh 50HDX Widescreen using my Progressive Pioneer 434 player set to 16:9 still plays most DVD's correctly in TheaterWide 1 mode, Full looks streached or Zoomed just a little bit, but its noticeable.
I believe that Theaterwide 1 in Toshibas stretches the image more at the edges than in the middle. You are seeing all of the picture, but it is "distorted".
You should be using Full for anamorphic DVDs and Theaterwide 3 for standard DVDs in widescreen format.
Check out the FAQ section again - widescreen stretch modes. The "translation" for the modes is at the bottom, as well as some sample pictures.
57U is correct. Theater Wide 1 does not do a linear horizontal stretch, FULL does.
50HDX, have you tried the Avia (or other DVD) to tweak your set? I'm still fighting with contrast. :( All the other basic settings are easy.
Thanks,
Lee
50HDX
11-18-2002, 12:50 AM
No i haven't tried Avia, I thought i would get one later as needed. I think it(50HDX) looks fantastic right out of the box, My Cable looks really good, I expected it to be terrible & I haven't even pushed the One Touch Focus button yet.............really it looks great. Its only 2mos old now and not one hint of any problems. Cross my fingers, lol :D
What setting do you use to watch DVD's? MOVIE?
Lee
50HDX
11-18-2002, 01:08 AM
Theaterwide 1 looks the best to me.
Sorry, I meant the contrast/brightness. STANDARD or MOVIE or a PREFERENCE setting?
Lee
kevinw
11-18-2002, 08:48 AM
Let me chime in here:
DVD's should be watched in FULL mode
Regular TV and Pan and Scan In TH1
TH2 and 3 zoom on a picture cutting off portions.
When setting up your TV START in MOVIE. This will disable SVM(the edge enhancement feature). Using Avia or S&V adjust your settings but first make sure all the extra are off. Make sure you save your preferences. From this point on you watch in prefered mode. You have to do this with each input.
Next step 56 point convergence
:D
50HDX
11-18-2002, 11:38 AM
I used the THX sound & video setup in THX DVD's, to set my contrast & brightness, which depends on if its daytime or dark out cause i have a very well lite room that my Toshiba is in. so everyone will have different perferable settings due to room lighting. agree. Whatever looks good for each setting in your eyes, My TV viewing is also set different than my DVD"s. I set my preference on each input(Ant 1, Ant 2, Colorstream HD1 and Video2). I'm looking at LOTR's widescreen version now, Full mode looks really squished and has 3" bar's at top & Bottom. TW 1 has 1" bars Top&Bottom and looks CORRECT to ME. TW 2 Zooms it larger and TW 3 is slightly zoomed and both TW 2 & 3 fill the screen. But its very noticable so i use TW 1. So in my opinion whatever looks good on your set, Not mine, Not his, but yours.............. so don't get so technical and just enjoy it. You can go through the Picture Menue modes and see what looks best when you start your Movie, i do.:mad: LOL
zuerchers
11-26-2002, 04:54 PM
i own a 50hdx82 hdtv and have never watched a widescreen version dvd in natural mode because of the two black bars and the two grey bars described earlier in this thread. by the way, i play all my dvd's with an xbox. anyway, this new game came out that is being advertised as the first 1080 hd game and i rented it today. for the first time EVER, it displayed the picture over the ENTIRE screen (NO BLACK OR GREY BARS) in NATURAL mode. i don't have a clue why it finally works as described in the owners manual, but it does.
This is not strange at all.
It works that way because 1080i (True HD) signals fill up the 16:9 screen.
(many TVs do not allow "stretching" true HD, while some will, to allow you to get rid of black bars on 4:3 upconverted programmes.)
If you have true HD channels (HDABC, HDNBC, etc) coming to a widescreen TV, there is usually no need to do any stretching, so they show properly.
DVDs are not true HD, therefore they need a form of stretching to properly fill the screeen, unless you want to watch 4:3 (fullscreen) DVDs in its original 4:3 format.
